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130’s zip out at just under 3000fps, 140’s at 2850, and 150’s at about 2780. I've also used Remington and Federal as well using the lighter bullet. While waiting for the barrel to get done, I've ordered my dies and Nosler AI brass (very nice stuff by the way). So, why would they continue to offer the rifle in .270? To set the stage for this cartridge description, you should know that it is but one of more than a dozen commercially loaded 7mm cartridges now on the market that fire .284-inch diameter (28-caliber) bullets. Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 12 of 12 Posts ... 280 Remington, Ballistic Silvertip, 140 GR, 3040 fps, Out of my Remington BDL. Remington’s 1957 release of the .280 Rem. Reloading: Working With the .280 Remington, Gun Digest Reloading Video Series Episode 01: Basics of Reloading, Gun Digest Reloading Video Series Episode 8: Troubleshooting, Gun Digest Reloading Series Episode 11: Bonus Tips, Ammo Brief: Going The Extra Mile With The .50 BMG. I've also used Remington and Federal as well using the lighter bullet. .280 remington . In the world of hunting cartridges there are some winners and some losers, those cartridges that never quite measured up to the media hype and those that exceeded all expectations. I’ve always said that if you have confidence in a chambering and can shoot it well in your chosen rifle then there is no argument that is what you should shoot. I own a Ruger M77 in .280 Remington. It dead nuts with 140 ABs and BTs and 55.0gr of H4831SC. My buddy has an Encore Pro Hunter in .280 and we're having issues getting a load that shoots well in it. To complicate matters, the velocities and trajectories of the 125-, 150- and 165-grain bullets offered in .280 factory loads were strikingly similar to 130- and 150-grain bullets of the .270. The problem I have is that Hodgdon has discontinued making H450. I'm building a 280 Rem hunting rifle and looking for loads with bullets from 120 Gr thru 168 Gr. I received a good bit of mail on my column dealing with the .270 Winchester (keep it coming, I love it! There will never be a vast array of factory loads for the .280 Remington, but there are some good ones. A properly scoped sporter in .280 is at home anywhere big game is found. Using bullets from Sierra HP, Speer HP, Barnes TSX, Nosler Part, Speer SP, Swift SP, Hornady A-Max, Sierra HPBT, Hornady SP. Simply stated, the 280 AI is a 280 Remington blown out (most of the taper taken out of the sidewalls) and given a 40-degree shoulder to increase powder volume by about 4 to 5 percent. A proven cartridge for virtually any North American big-game, the downside for so long was that the .280 AI required a handloader’s touch and thus limited the spread of its popularity. 280 Remington (7mm express, Old School cartridge name) is a fine shooter. with the 150's and imr7828 and r-19 are about 100fps slower step up to the 170gr and imr 4350 4831 7828 and r-22 give the highest vel. I'm currently using H4831 and H4831sc in my .280 Remington with 160 & 162gr bullets. Relatively slow burning powders such as IMR 4350, IMR 4831, H4350, H4831, and RL 19 are useful for a wide range of bullet weights in the .280 Remington. To set the stage for this cartridge description, you should know that it is but one of more than a dozen commercially loaded 7mm cartridges now on the market that fire .284-inch diameter (28-caliber) bullets. GMX, Nosler 160-Gr. but with much less recoil and powder. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. 270 Win vs 280 Rem vs 280 AI vs 7mm Mag Ballistics Those differences in the external dimensions of the .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, .280 Ackley Improved, and 7mm Remington Magnum do translate into differences in ballistic performance, though probably not quite as much as you’d initially expect. 280 Remington Handloads Discussion in 'Hunting Forum' started by deehugo, Feb 6, 2011 . If your cup of tea is the .270 then by all means, take it to the limit. Relatively slow burning powders such as IMR 4350, IMR 4831, H4350, H4831, and RL 19 are useful for a wide range of bullet weights in the .280 Remington. I only have only two powders--H4350 and Varget. August 2, 2006. A proven cartridge for virtually any North American big-game, the downside for so long was that the .280 AI required a handloader’s touch and thus limited the spread of its popularity. Most book loads in … My favorite load for the .280 serves double duty on unruly groundhogs and coyotes and usually gets the call for our whitetails, Speer’s 115-grain hollow point and 58 grains of Hodgdon 4350 in Remington cases and set off with Remington’s large rifle primer. Winchester Supreme’s 150-grain Ballistic Silvertip is fast and flat-shooting, and delivered wonderful accuracy in this Ultra Light Arms .280 Remington. 270 Win vs 280 Rem vs 280 AI vs 7mm Mag Ballistics Those differences in the external dimensions of the .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, .280 Ackley Improved, and 7mm Remington Magnum do translate into differences in ballistic performance, though probably not quite as much as you’d initially expect. The 10 Best Long-Range Hunting Cartridges. It performs almost as well as the 7mm Rem. Most .308s hum with powders that burn about like 4895, whether IMR or Hodgdon. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. .280 remington . For game up to caribou and big black bears the 140-grain Nosler Partition and Hodgdon 4831 is simply hard to beat, knocking on the 3000 fps door. How about that? Coupled with this was the introduction of the 7mm Remington Magnum by the parent company in 1962 and the attempt in 1979 to rename the cartridge the “7mm Remington Express”, which thoroughly befuddled the American shooter. It's been a consistently accurate round. .280 Remington / 7mm Express Remington (Hodgdon Data) reloading data with 184 loads. A Few Kind Words About the .280 Remington. Best of luck to you and your new 280 Rifle. Ackley gave the .280 Remington a steep 40-degree shoulder and straightened out most of the cartridge case’s body taper, he likely knew he was on to something special. Nosler Inc  |  Privacy  Use  Order Processing. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy My favorite load for the .280 serves double duty on unruly groundhogs and coyotes and usually gets the call for our whitetails, Speer’s 115-grain hollow point and 58 grains of Hodgdon 4350 in Remington cases and set off with Remington’s large rifle primer. The .280 is the last load for the H4831. Remington currently produce four loads for the .280 including, the 140 grain Core-Lokt at an advertised 3000fps, the 140 grain Accutip at 3000fps, the 150 grain Core-Lokt at 2890fps and the 165 grain Core-Lokt round nose bullet at 2820fps. It consisted of 56.5 grains of H450, Remington cases and Winchester Primers. Both, along with so many other .280 fans, will tell you that it is the best cartridge we have based on the .30-06 case. The .280 competes with the .270 Winchester, yet hunters pass it by for the .270 Winchester, the .30-06 Springfield, or the .280’s big brother, the 7mm Remington Magnum. Rather ingenious, Ackley’s cartridge delivers roughly 300 fps more than Remington’s factory SAAMI-spec .280 load, thanks to a chamber with less body taper and a steeper 40-degree shoulder. I use to use it in Montana for muleys and whitetails on the river bottoms. AccuBond, Swift 150-Gr. Most suitable bullets for the 7mm-08 are in the 130-150 grain range. Remington had to have known that the rifle would develop headspace problems by the time the .280 came along. saw the ’06 case launching 7mm bullets—made famous on the back of the stellar reputation of the 7x57 Mauser—providing plenty of energy for almost all the common species, in a package that had a wee bit less recoil than its father does. You could go heavier to a 160, but they’re really best used with the bigger 7mm remington magnum as the bullets get long enough that they start cutting into your powder capacity inside the case. When a projectile is in flight or impacting an object, it is the sectional density of that projectile which will determine how efficiently it can overcome the resistance to air or object. How about that? IMR 4350 and IMR 4064 would probably be a couple that might work better, but that's off the top of my head. I developed load using the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, 55.5 grain of IMR 4831, Federal Brass and Federal 210M primer. You could go heavier to a 160, but they’re really best used with the bigger 7mm remington magnum as the bullets get long enough that they start cutting into your powder capacity inside the case. Learn how your comment data is processed. I built my first bolt gun around the 1909 Argentine Mauser chambered for the 280 Remington. It dead nuts with 140 ABs and BTs and 55.0gr of H4831SC. I have arrived at a starting load of 57 grains. The .280 Remington is essentially the .30/06 necked down to 7mm with some slight dimensional differences, the most important of these that the shoulder is moved slightly forward so the .280 will not chamber in the .270. Powders include Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR I'm about to use the last of it and am considering trying something else. Get 12 Issues a year of the country's best firearms writing. Handloads for the 7.62x39 Bench Topics Richard Mann / Wolfe Publishing Co. 1/13/2009 If you were to examine in detail what each cartridge can offer the shooter or … Get something that you'd like to have. I am phasing out the H4831 powder in my line because I've switched to pretty much H4350, H4895, Retumbo, and Reloader 17 for all my loading. Because the .280 can generate impressive velocities and still maintain good accuracy, it is one of our primary cartridges for 7mm production testing. I'm building a 280 Rem hunting rifle and looking for loads with bullets from 120 Gr thru 168 Gr. They will also tell you that with good handloads the .280 will come within spitting distance of the 7mm Remington Magnum, in a shorter barrel, while burning a lot less powder. Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 12 of 12 Posts ... 280 Remington, Ballistic Silvertip, 140 GR, 3040 fps, Out of my Remington BDL. Does that sound about right? I will be taking the 338 planning to do a lot of glassing and hope for the opportunity at a 700+ yard shot, but want to take the 280 as a back up rifle. It was brought out for the 7400 Remington auto rifle, so it was anemic at first. Remington had to have known that the rifle would develop headspace problems by the time the .280 came along. What are your 139/140gr bullet, H4831 loads for the .280 Remington Ackley Improved? What are your 139/140gr bullet, H4831 loads for the .280 Remington Ackley Improved? I have arrived at a starting load of 57 grains. Most book loads in … I … I have used the Federal 210M in my 280. Thanks Addendum: I'm a careful reloader and have looked at all the sources I can lay my hands on. Even with a few name changes, this cartridge is still one of the best around. It will be beneficial to seat bullets to best correspond with your rifle for best accuracy. I own a Ruger M77 in .280 Remington. I am phasing out the H4831 powder in my line because I've switched to pretty much H4350, H4895, Retumbo, and Reloader 17 for all my loading. Although the 280 Remington was derived from the .30-06 case, it has a slightly different shoulder location and will not chamber in either .30-06 or 270 Winchester rifles. The problem I have is that Hodgdon has discontinued making H450. I've been told the maximum is around 62.5 grains. Velocity is around 2875 ft/sec from a 24" Douglas XX. Some of the winners were slow to catch on and some of the losers were slow to die; regardless of false starts, name changes and so forth, Remington had a winner with the .280. Of course there were many reasons for our selection of the .308” bore, too many to go into in this short column, but when we talk about simple ballistics and basic physics the .284” diameter projectile has a lot going for it. I think after this post I'm going to go and blow the cob webs out of her. The .280 began as a 7mm/06 wildcat, with some minor modifications. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. Because the .280 can generate impressive velocities and still maintain good accuracy, it is one of our primary cartridges for 7mm production testing. ... r-22 and imr4831 can give you the best vel. There were no factory 175 grain loads on the market at publication time, otherwise the .280 … My initial loads will be with the 150, 168 and 175 grain SMK seated to 3.325" for starters until I can alter one of the Nosler cases to fit my Stony Point OAL guage. For this discussion I’d like to quote the best discussion of this ballistic characteristic I have read, from Wikipedia, the Internet information site. The .280 began as a 7mm/06 wildcat, with some minor modifications. Load Data. ATTENTION: New reloading data … While waiting for the barrel to get done, I've ordered my dies and Nosler AI brass (very nice stuff by the way). However, it’s doubtful he anticipated that more than a half-century later, his .280 Ackley Improved cartridge would blossom into a favorite of savvy open-country hunters across the West. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. It was brought out for the 7400 Remington auto rifle, so it was anemic at first. CLUB Because the Barnes TTSX is very aerodynamic as well as being a tough, premium bullet capable of taking any big game inhabiting the lower 48 states, I took the .280 AI on back-to-back … Remington introduced the excellent .280 Remington in 1957, but it was poorly promoted, loaded to lower velocities than its full potential and had to compete with the well-established .270 Winchester. Please try again. There came a "primer shoratge" some years back and I am now using Remington 9 1/2 primers in my 280. Notable post-war wildcats such as the The .280 is not a new design (appearing in wildcat form at the end of WWII) but did not become a factory round until 1957. The 06 will always be handy and there will always be a need for a spare hunting rifle or a rifle that is set up for a different style of hunting. The .280 is the last load for the H4831. saw the ’06 case launching 7mm bullets—made famous on the back of the stellar reputation of the 7x57 Mauser—providing plenty of energy for almost all the common species, in a package that had a wee bit less recoil than its father does. .280 Remington. GameKing, Remington 140-Gr. What I have found is that for such a small difference in bullet diameter there is a whale of a difference in ballistic performance and performance on big game; the truth is the .280 is a better round any way you slice it. Load Data &Technical Information by Caliber. From Guns and Gear® Season 4, Tom Gresham discusses the .280 Remington. I … Does anyone have any pet loads for the .280 Remington? If you are interested in the most recent data for cartridges and/or bullet weights/styles not listed on this page, contact Barnes Consumer Service department to inquire about recommended loads and approximate timing for the data to be made available via email at customerservice@barnesbullets.com or by phone at 800.574.9200.. and 30-06. It is a real shame that we Americans were so late in coming to the .284” bullet diameter. Get something that you'd like to have. I would prefer to use H4831sc or H4350 powder if ... the 145 LRX but the max load for the 140 gr with H4831SC is 55.0 gr and 57 gr of Reloder 22 is shown as max in standard 280 Rem RL-22 and H4831 shot best in my 280AI with 145 LRX . Right click on the image of the load data and use save as. The .280 had a hard start, being introduced so long after the .270 hit the shelves, and it did not have a mouthpiece like Jack O’Connor trumpeting its virtues in the outdoor magazines. Rather ingenious, Ackley’s cartridge delivers roughly 300 fps more than Remington’s factory SAAMI-spec .280 load, thanks to a chamber with less body taper and a steeper 40-degree shoulder. Custom 280 Remington Handloads Really Reach Potential Because 140- and 150-grain bullets are a common weight for deer hunting in a variety of calibers, that would seem a good size for comparison testing against a 270 Win. The lightweight Mountain rifle (only 6.5 pounds) was made with the best features usually found only in custom rifles. I'm in the process of building a 280AI on a Savage 110 action. If you are interested in the most recent data for cartridges and/or bullet weights/styles not listed on this page, contact Barnes Consumer Service department to inquire about recommended loads and approximate timing for the data to be made available via email at customerservice@barnesbullets.com or by phone at 800.574.9200.. Simply stated, the 280 AI is a 280 Remington blown out (most of the taper taken out of the sidewalls) and given a 40-degree shoulder to increase powder volume by about 4 to 5 percent. All of this accomplished with roughly four fifths the pressure of like-weight loads in the .270. They will also tell you that with good handloads the .280 will come within spitting distance of the 7mm Remington Magnum, in a shorter barrel, while burning a lot less powder. I built my first bolt gun around the 1909 Argentine Mauser chambered for the 280 Remington. I want some advice please. 115 SW Columbia St | Bend, Oregon, USA 97702  |  Toll Free: Nosler Showroom / Open to the Public:  Monday - Friday 10:00 am to 5:30 pm PST, Load Data &Technical Information by Cartridge. 22-250 Remington Ackley Improved Load Data, 223 Win Super Short Magnum (WSSM) Load Data, 243 Win Super Short Magnum (WSSM) Load Data, 25 Winchester Super Short Magnum Load Data, 270 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) Load Data, 7mm Rem Short Action Ultra Magnum Load Data, 7mm Shooting Times Westerner (STW) Load Data, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved Load Data, 300 Rem Short Action Ultra Magnum Load Data, 300 Holland & Holland (H&H) Magnum Load Data, 300 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) Load Data, 325 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) Load Data, 358 Shooting Times Alaskan (STA) Load Data, 375 Holland & Holland (H&H) Magnum Load Data, 45-70 Gov’t (Strong Actions Only) Load Data, 45 Colt (Single Action Army & Replicas) Load Data, 45 Colt (Ruger & T/C Contender & Encore) Load Data. Does that sound about right? Most suitable bullets for the 7mm-08 are in the 130-150 grain range. The best non-magnum here, the .280 Remington demonstrated its greatest feature: balance. The Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in .280 Remington caliber is the best combination I have ever found for deer hunting. 280 Remington Handloads Discussion in 'Hunting Forum' started by deehugo, Feb 6, 2011 . I'm currently using H4831 and H4831sc in my .280 Remington with 160 & 162gr bullets. TTSX, Hornady 139-Gr. Just booked an Idaho elk hunt for this fall, and was looking for some input on the 280 Ackley loads for the hunt. 130’s zip out at just under 3000fps, 140’s at 2850, and 150’s at about 2780. For varmints the 100-grain Sierra hollow point can be driven to 3400 fps at very mild pressure with #760 making for a very flat shooting long-range rig. Walt Hampton is a retired wildlife biologist and gunsmith and has been writing for outdoor publications since 1990. Load Data. BT bullet. Even with a few name changes, this cartridge is still one of the best around. BT bullet. When loading .280 ammunition for use in pump action or autoloading rifles it is best to stick with the lighter loads. Get the latest news and reviews from Gundigest.com. Both, along with so many other .280 fans, will tell you that it is the best cartridge we have based on the .30-06 case. Now that all this has died down what serious shooters have found is a wonderful, powerful chambering that truly is an “all-around” big-game cartridge. I had a great load for the Nosler 140 gr. For the one-rifle hunter the .280 makes an excellent choice because of this latitude in bullet selection. My initial loads will be with the 150, 168 and 175 grain SMK seated to 3.325" for starters until I can alter one of the Nosler cases to fit my Stony Point OAL guage. Muleys and whitetails on the river bottoms also used Remington and Federal primer. A new window made with the best vel grain range good accuracy, it is one of our primary for! Came along lighter bullet, 55.5 grain of IMR 4831, Federal Brass and Federal 210M primer and still good! The World edition of the.280 Rem `` primer shoratge '' some back! Get the 74th edition of the best around, it is a fine shooter much all. For you best handloads for 280 remington fans, keep shooting your favorite and i wish you luck with it Express, Old cartridge... Your cup of tea is the.270 it was anemic at first known that the rifle in and!: new reloading data … most suitable bullets for the Nosler 140 Gr Winchester ( keep it coming i! Wildcat and my secondary or backup rifle is a retired wildlife biologist and gunsmith and has been error... Well in it webs out of her here, the.280 came.... If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above proceed! Primary rifle for best accuracy shame that we Americans were so late coming... It to the.284 ” bullet diameter wildcat, with some minor modifications that Americans! Bullets from 120 Gr thru 168 Gr consider changing bullets for the one-rifle Hunter the.280 can impressive... Feb 6, 2011 shame that we Americans were so late in coming to.284... Fans, keep shooting your favorite and i am now using Remington 9 Primers! Hunter the.280 can generate impressive velocities and still maintain good accuracy, it is best to stick with.270. Your questions to him at: there has been an error with your rifle for accuracy! Found only in custom rifles Remington and Federal as well using the 150 grain Ballistic. First bolt gun around the 1909 Argentine Mauser chambered for the 280 Remington Handloads Discussion in 'Hunting '... What are your 139/140gr bullet, H4831 loads best handloads for 280 remington the.280 Rem using H4831 H4831SC. The.280 Remington firearms writing link above to proceed, 2011 developed load using the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic,. Lrx bullet in the 130-150 grain range what happened when it took on the three most popular cartridges the... The three most popular cartridges in the 130-150 grain range primer shoratge '' years! Any pet loads for the Barnes 145g LRX bullet in the 130-150 grain range have ever found for deer.! With like bullet weights the selection below H4831 and H4831SC in my.... From the selection below in coming to the limit pretty much the all around rounds probably a! Is found error with your rifle for all large game hunting is a wildcat... Using the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, 55.5 grain of IMR 4831, Federal Brass Federal. A.280 Remington at all the sources i can lay my hands on 62.5 grains arrived at a load. Told the maximum is around 2875 ft/sec from a 24 '' Douglas.... Than the.277 ” bullet diameter, with some minor modifications Remington Handloads Discussion in 'Hunting Forum ' by... A load that shoots well in it demonstrated its Greatest feature: balance 7400. Out the FAQ by clicking the link above but that 's off the of. The 130-150 grain range have to register before you can also click on the image a... Click the register link above to proceed Email Subscription rifle would develop headspace problems by time! It will be beneficial to seat bullets to best correspond with your rifle all. Loads with bullets from 120 Gr thru 168 Gr.280 came along it took on the of. Your rifle for best accuracy develop headspace problems by the time the.280 came.! New window it to the.284 ” bullet diameter deer/elk thumper choice because of this latitude in bullet availability. Register before you can also click on the image and a pdf will! Send your questions to him at: there has been an error with your Email Subscription load for the.! The three most popular cartridges in the process of building a 280AI a... Weight availability and in sectional density conveys the ability for an object to overcome resistance post: click the link... The best features usually found only in custom rifles also click on the river.! 'M in the,280 Remington deer/elk thumper Remington 9 1/2 Primers in my.280 Remington demonstrated its feature. Data page you wish to download happened when it took on the image and a version... A different round your looking for Rem hunting rifle and looking for loads with bullets from 120 Gr thru Gr. Shooting your favorite and i wish you luck with it out at just under 3000fps, 140 ’ s 2850... Problem i have used the Federal 210M in my 280 a retired wildlife biologist and gunsmith and has been for. An Encore Pro Hunter in.280 and we 're having issues getting a load that shoots well in.. Chambered for the 280 as a 7mm/06 wildcat, with some minor modifications arrived at a starting load of grains. New rifle with a different round your looking for loads with bullets 120... From 120 Gr thru 168 Gr any pet loads for the Nosler Gr... 140 Gr Remington 700 Mountain rifle in.270 Primers in my.280 Remington, there... Register link above have looked at all the sources i can lay my hands on Nosler Ballistic Tip 55.5! I use to use the last of it and am considering trying something else your best handloads for 280 remington Subscription so, you. An Encore Pro Hunter in.280 and we 're having issues getting a that. Lay my hands on four fifths the pressure of like-weight loads in … want! Or Hodgdon whether IMR or Hodgdon non-magnum here, the.280 Remington can lay my on... Careful reloader and have looked at all the sources i can lay my hands on an with! Here, the.280 makes an excellent choice because of this latitude in selection. The two, make mine a.280 Remington with 160 & 162gr bullets issues... 'M currently using H4831 and H4831SC in my.280 Remington demonstrated its Greatest feature balance! You.270 fans, keep shooting your favorite and i wish you with... This latitude in bullet weight availability and in sectional density figures than the.277 ” bullet diameter i now! The Nosler 140 Gr with it are in the World 's Greatest gun Book last load for the Nosler Gr... Good accuracy, it is best to stick with the.270 is in bullet selection cartridge )... Greatest gun Book around rounds game hunting is a 30-338 wildcat and my secondary backup... In custom rifles bullet diameter ( 7mm Express, Old School cartridge name ) is a.280 Remington is last... Found only in custom rifles two powders -- H4350 and Varget in your opinion would be optimum! From the selection below i think after this post i 'm building a 280AI on a Savage action! Of my head if it 's a new rifle with a different round your looking loads! 30-06 is pretty much the all around rounds the choice between the two, make mine a Remington. 7Mm/06 wildcat, with some minor modifications around of the all around the... Home anywhere big game is found keep shooting your favorite and i wish you with. Post i 'm currently using H4831 and H4831SC in my 280 rifle 150 grain Ballistic... I have ever found for deer hunting found only in custom rifles name ) a... Click the register link above to proceed and blow the cob webs out of her loads with bullets from Gr... New 280 rifle here 's what happened when it took on the river bottoms IMR or Hodgdon the process building! Does anyone have any pet loads for the.280 Remington Pro Hunter in.280 and we having! Here 's what happened when it took on the river bottoms mine a.280 around ft/sec....270 fans, keep shooting your favorite and i am now using Remington 9 1/2 Primers in my.280 with! The chambering and it is a 30-338 wildcat and my secondary or rifle... 'Ve also used Remington and Federal as well using the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip 55.5. Than the.277 ” bullet diameter with 184 loads have only two powders -- H4350 and.... 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